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NO, I am not starting this thread to start a punch up.

BUT, I was thinking whilst I was removing part of a large clump of C.lucifer, how times have changed.

When I planted the first clump 20 years ago, they were regarded as not completely hardy in the North. The original clump has been divided many times and they have survived some very harsh northern winters.

Is this climate change?

The fact that they survived some severe winters merely proves that they are hardier than people once thought. The climate has changed, Lucifer hasn't.


I don't think there's much argument about global warming if you see the facts re the arctic circle ice melt, but, we still get drizzle at Christmas across much of the country, despite the films we used to watch and we get cold weather as 'the days grow longer', which fact was spoken about a century ago. However, re 'Lucifer' and many other plants I can think of, I think that a combination of our knowledge of where to site them and the plants' natural ability to adapt has allowed many things to establish themselves quite successfully in gardens. The number of plants available to us now is hugely increased from what even one as young as I am can remember (!), particularly when it comes to perennials, I think.


Last edited: 27 November 2016 16:14:47


I don't dispute that what we do affects the climate but nothing stays the same

 There have been ice ages, and in more recent times, the big snow in the 60s and the drought in the 70s. Most Christmas days that I remember have been dry, sunny and often 'unseasonably' warm  - unlike the snowy Christmas cards. We can do our best to mitigate our contribution to the changes but volcanic eruptions etc can cause as much damage to the status quo as our own efforts.


I was a doctor on an Arctic scientific trip in 2015 and all the experts there would agree with you. I was only there to see Polar Bears and Whales and hope I didn't have any work to do!



The contribution of CO2 from volcanoes is less than 1% of that from humans burning fossil fuel.  This gives some perspective to the huge amount of damage we are causing, all by our little selves.

I remember reading that Christmas Day was more likely to be "green" than white back in the 1960's before global warming was thought of, it appears to fall within a cyclical period of low pressure from the atlantic, wet but not cold.

Mike Allen

Punkdoc.  No. No.  No pucnch ups please.  Thank yopu my friend fo rraising this subject.  How well we migh remenber days ,years past.  Put in for your annual leave for the last two weeks in August ant te first in September.  For whatever reason, to hell with the metro office. For times past it has proved good.  Then suddenly things change. A sudden thunderstorm litening etc flash floeods in winter and so often out of season.  Reports and news coverage of the artic Ice mountains melting.. Ice turning back to watere.   seas rising.  Is this simply the first lines of a new movie.  NO.  It's true.  Laugh,huff and puff.  It is true..  Back to Puncdok's post..  Take a  look at the globe.  Follow the lomgitudes in patrticular.  On a worldwide conencenus, All land masses are experiency the same problems

Last edited: 28 November 2016 01:40:41



Citation, or this is pure armchair 'expertise.' And please don't tell me to 'Google it.'


It has been measured.  There's an article about it by the Hawaiin Volcanic Observatory mob - and no doubt others.  I'm so glad I'm not downwind of a volcano emitting SO2!

Earth's weather patterns have always been cyclical with mini ice ages and so on but those have been largely a result of the elliptical nature or our orbit round the sun and thus greater or lesser distance from the heat.   However, the past few decades have seen a relentless rise in average temperatures that is, amongst other things, having a devastating effect on ice flows in mountain glaciers and the ice cap at the North Pole.  This is leading to increased sea levels and more turbulent and frequent catastrophic storms.

Having deliberately moved south to a new garden in order to experience a beneficial climate change for both my garden ambitions and my arthritis, I can't speak about the effects on plants here as I don't know them yet but I do know there was a very long and unusual drought here from mid July to the end of October after a cold wet spring and that, according to our farmer neighbours, has made life difficult for both his beef cattle and the crops he grows to feed them through winter.   He's had to carry food and water to the fields 6 weeks ahead of normal.


I agree H-C. I was wary about starting this thread, knowing the problems we have had in the recent past, but I am genuinely interested to find out how the people with the opposite view to mine explain their logic.


Climate change makes sense to me - from what I've read and heard I've  worked it out as follows:

Way way back when the planet was a relatively newly formed mass in space large areas of the earth was covered with hot steamy swamps growing giant trees and ferns and plants like marestail photosynthesising like mad, taking in carbon dioxide and producing oxygen.  This went on for aeons.  

As the planet got older it cooled because the energy was 'locked up in the decaying plant matter, so the earth's crust hardened and under pressure the decayed plant matter became coal and oil buried beneath the surface.  

Ice ages came and went and I understand that these are understood to be related to changes in the earth's axis and also solar changes.

Then came the Industrial Revolution; first coal was mined and burned, then petroleum and gas were discovered and we burned and continue to burn that to produce the energy we have become so dependent on.  

Don't forget those school physics lessons ... energy produces heat.

The coal, petroleum and gas are the giant trees and ferns and plants like marestail which had covered the globe, photosynthesising carbon dioxide into oxygen.  By burning them we are releasing the carbon dioxide back into the atmosphere and slowly but steadily reproducing the conditions which prevailed back then.  

Periods of cooling etc will continue to come and go because of changes in the earth's axis and changes to the sun, but while we continue to release the carbon dioxide back into the atmosphere we are causing the globe to heat back up.  Sometimes it will be two steps forward and one back, but the overall direction of the temperature is upwards.

Pretty simplified explanation, but it makes sense to me. 


Me too.

Undoubtedly climate change will occur, that is nothing to do with us, but we have made the situation far worse and have a very limited time to try to reverse some of these changes.


Of course the Earth's climate is changing. It always has and always will.

What I don't accept is this notion that it will result in global catastrophe. There's a lot of evidence to show that's a political ruse intended to make a few rich people much richer, for next to zero net benefit to the rest of us. How vain a species we are.

But that's for me and my conscience to resolve.

I do agree that this is definitely not the right forum to debate the matter.



Have you been listenting to Donald Trump?


It's trolling like that that starts flame wars.

Last edited: 28 November 2016 11:35:47

jeninkent says:


Citation, or this is pure armchair 'expertise.' And please don't tell me to 'Google it.'

See original post

 Certainly.  USGS:

Google is only useful if you are able to eliminate results based on 'armchair' science, of course.

Edit: Oops, just spteed Ob has already posted that one.  This one is from the British equiuvalent and is a peer-reviewed paper:

Last edited: 28 November 2016 16:02:18

Not sure I agree that a Gardening forum should avoid discussion/debate on this topic.  It does affect gardeners as much as anyone else and each of us has a view based on our experience.

Recording of the climate as such is a relatively modern thing - for aeons past, we have to rely on various scientific evidence which is being uncovered on a regular basis.  Some of the evidence has been proven to be a little biased ( can't recall the exact incident which came up a few years ago ) but that would seem to be one off. Interpretation of the evidence is not easy for the layman and I assume that is why the subject is so controversial.

A political ruse ?  Could very well be.  America's plan to burn more fossil fuels in the future is certainly politically inspired.  As always, most countries seek to do what is best for their economy so nothing new there.

Just from my experience ( 27 years plus a bit  ), seasons have altered quite drastically and weather "events" as they are termed these days seem more regular, harsher and due to instant news, we all hear about them.

Mind you, I could do with a bit of Global Warming here at the mo - clear sky and distinctly cool  ( and smilies on the blink again too ).

It's an interesting topic if we play nicely I think.