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Clematis - Group 1 & Group 3 pruning mess!

Hello – apologies if this has already been covered before (many times!). We’re new to gardening and this site. We have a Frankie (Group 1?) and Etoile Violette (Group 3?) together in a large container, and they’ve been very neglected. They are a tangled mess, haven’t been pruned at all, and what flowers they now produce are metres above the base (they were very profuse the 1st year). We’ve been caught out each late winter/spring, as the clematis aren’t in an immediately visible spot, and due to ill-health we haven’t been out to check them regularly, until suddenly they’re producing new growth and it’s been too late to do anything. The advice I’ve seen for Group 3 in the UK says something like ‘In February or March, cut back all the old stems to the lowest pair of healthy buds 15-30cm (6in-1ft) above soil level’...unfortunately, I don’t remember there being any buds this low down in the first spring on the Violette, and certainly any buds/growth since have been metres above the base. So, what I’d like to ask is:

-          can we prune the Violette right back/how far, even if this is just onto bare woody stems? Will it regrow? When could/should we do it? (If you can see buds, presumably the plant isn’t dormant?)

-          The Frankie is also a horrible woody mess – can this be pruned right back etc? If not, timing might be difficult on pruning the Violette as it’s hard to guess which woody stem belongs to which?

Many thanks for any advice!

Posts

  • chickychicky Posts: 10,409

    Hi Shelly - not really sure how you go about disentangling them (i try not to grow group 3's with anything other than other Group 3's for that very reason - then you can just prune the lot to the same level).  

    However, i can help on the Group 3 pruning, where it is fine to cut into what appears to be unpromising woody stems - the new buds appear from the leaf axels, and sometimes you get new shoots appearing from underground too, which then extends the overall plant.

     

  • Mrs GMrs G Posts: 336

    Just cut them both back but you might lose out on flowers on the type 1 or get them later.  I would probably wait until mid Feb maybe as the top growth will protect them from frost.  While you're about it you could replant them in separate pots with fresh compost and then you'd avoid this bother next time.  Lots of plants in my garden have buds, they are still dormant because they are not actively growing.  The buds are there ready for the spring.

  • ObelixxObelixx Posts: 30,064

    You can't really do a sympatetic prune on a group 1 grown in the same hole or pot as a group 3 as group 1s just need the top growth pruning back after they finish flowering whereas group 3s can be cut rigt back and will regrow either from the lowest buds or else from new stems coming up from undergound.

    If you can't actually separate the two plants and put them in their own planting holes or pots I would just cut everything down in late Feb to late March, depending on your local conditons and then give the plants a generous dollop of slow release special clematis food and a few good drinks of liquid tomato food to get them going again.

    Vendée - 20kms from Atlantic coast.
    "The price good men (and women) pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men (and women)."
    Plato
  • DovefromaboveDovefromabove Posts: 88,138

    I think they probably need repotting - you say they've been neglected and aren't producing many flowers - clematis are very hungry plants. 

    I'd cut them both pretty hard back - take them out of the pot and gently wash and disentangle the roots, then re- pot them both separately in good quality loam-based compost.  I'd use  two thirds JI No 3 mixed with one third MPC. Plant them 6" deeper than previously.  You won't get any flowers on the Frankie this year, but it'll rejuvenate both the plants.

    Good luck image


    Gardening in Central Norfolk on improved gritty moraine over chalk ... free-draining.





  • It’s so kind of you all to reply with such helpful advice, and so quickly! (I don’t get on the PC very often).

    I’m still really confused about the idea of the ‘lowest buds’ – the stems look completely dead for metres above soil level, and don’t grow any leaves (though the very tops of the plants have always grown each year), so where do we cut? What does a ‘leaf axel’ look like – are these the little brown woody collars (every few inches to a foot or so) along the stem? (As I say, at the bottom these don’t usually produce leaves now).

    The other thing I forgot to mention – I think the pot and lower portion of the stems are in permanent shade because of nearby buildings...I can’t remember how far down the sun reaches (it’s north west facing)...do I cut so the top of the stems are still within the daylight or will this not be ‘drastic’ enough?

    Our Franckie Group 1 looks to have a couple of tiny leaves right at the top already...would the plan be to prune both plants back before the Violette starts to show any green? Or by waiting till mid Feb onwards (we’re in London), will the Violette already be growing, and is it ok to cut back then?

    Ideally we would separate the 2 plants as suggested ...unfortunately we have extremely limited outside space – we did try planting clematis in the only other possible spot (a Group 2, I can’t remember which, and then a Viticella Polish Spirit) but neither flourished, let alone flowered.

    Any further thoughts very much appreciated!

  • ObelixxObelixx Posts: 30,064

    You really do need to separate them if they are ever to perform well as, apart from their very different flowering and pruning regimes they will be competing for limited food resources.  Clematis are very hungry, thirsty plants and need loads of food to do well as well as adequate moisture.

    Can you not buy another pot?   

    The group 1 will naturally produce buds high up on old growth and will do this early as it flowers in spring.  To renew it and encourage buds lower down you need to remove a main stem to the ground every year once flowering is finihsed and then prune all stems back to a tidy framework.   This encourages the plant to produce healthy new growth at all levels and thus flowers each spring.  They can also be left unrpuned but then you will only get flowers at the top.   Either way, the best tip for flower power is clematis food given in generous dollops in early sprng and some liquid feeds of tomato food.

    The group 3 will show buds lower down when it starts in to growth.  It's still very early so patience is required.  You then cut back to just above these buds and remove all the top growth and feed as above but, as they flower for longer, feed more generously.

    See here for more - https://www.rhs.org.uk/advice/profile?PID=344 

    and https://www.rhs.org.uk/advice/profile?PID=347 

    Vendée - 20kms from Atlantic coast.
    "The price good men (and women) pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men (and women)."
    Plato
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