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...the simplest thing is to get rid of the rose altogether Mr Allen... and plant some other shrub instead...   as much as many of us love our roses, they are not the be all and end all of our gardens...   you can live without them, if it means a more attractive garden as a result.... would you put up with manky food on your plate every day..?

...I've never sprayed a rose in 30 years.... gardened in know...wet and windy... dozens of roses... all types.... never a problem.....  if one doesn't perform.... get rid!... there's always something else...

incidentally.... I realise you are somewhat proud of your qualifications and expertise... but in my view... you don't need to be scientific to dig a hole in the ground and plonk a rose in... or anything else for that matter....

...a little know how doesn't go amiss... you can pick that up anywhere...

Well. Agree with Salino...again

Why tolerate a plant that doesn't thrive?  Yep, get rid and plant something that looks happy and makes the grower happy.

However, I like to think I have a little knowledge and skill .....I have no artistic flair with paintbrush yet feel I can be with plants.  It helps me feel I can be creative in my way. Yet a simple front garden full of marigolds or  dahlias or chrysanthemums can give huge pleasure to both grower and visitor alike without any apparent creativity at all. 


The Oxford Dictionary's definition of 'science' is ".... The intellectual and practical activity encompassing the systematic study of the structure and behaviour of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment: "

Isn't that what gardeners do every day? 


Gardening is a mixture of art and science, although it is quite possible to garden successfully without a knowledge of either. I dont think that we should get too concerned about the minor details, the only important thing is how much you enjoy it.

I am a scientist, but have little interest in that side of gardening, prefering as Verdun says to try and paint pictures.

Chacun a san gout[ sp. ]


Absolutely Pdoc 

As an artist, I enjoy exploring colour, texture and form in my garden - but to do it successfully I attempt to embrace the science too - it's all fascinating 



You know, Mike Allen, you would be so much more accepted on this site if you learn to just take your place among the other gardeners here.

You really dont need to tell the whole story of your working years as a park keeper, policeman  so on, on every single thread you start. In fact, you dont need to start 2 or 3 threads a day in your own name, you could join in on other peoples threads.


If you want to chat, join in on the chat thread.


If you have advise on a gardening question, join in on that.



You will get yourself disliked with all this bragging, and that would be a shame, as its obvious you are desparate to fit in, but yours is not the way.








I know of at least 10 on here that stated off gardening along side their dads from small children.




My approach to gardening is Jackson Pollock's (rhyming slang).

Funny old world. My art Master told me I would earn a living white washing toilets, all the rage back then. I learnt my gardening watching Dad as he provided winter and summer for an extended family out of his large garden, "if you cannot eat it do not grow it" yet he did have in my eye's a wonderful colourful garden. I became an Engineer, is my garden a mathematical equation, no, do I carry out the engineers creed, "Cause, Effect, Cure" no. Colour coding to me is a myth as plants will do their own thing, at the moment I have a patch of bush Buddleia in full bloom attracting the insects and butterflies which I did not plant, my Japanese Anemone like the Buddleia came from next door, is it instantly wiped out because it is not in the great plan, no.

My Garden is a bit of all my experiences it has evolved over the 31 years I have lived here, do I grow things to please the neighbours, no, it reflects my moods and needs, is that not the whole idea of a garden?  



Mike - you know that many forum members are fond of you - we've proved it haven't we?- and as good friends do, can you imagine that we're all sitting around a table in a pub with a pint in our hands saying 'Shush Mike, you've already said that, don't go on so ..... just join in '  

You'd probably say to us, 'Do I go on?  Why didn't you tell me sooner?' and someone would say, 'We're fond of you and we know you've been poorly and worried, we didn't want to hurt your feelings'.   And you would say, "I wish you'd told me - I feel a bit of a plonker now'.

Well, that's what's going on now, and we've said it, and you've no need to feel a plonker - just join in and chat with the rest of us.  There's no need for essays and whole chapters of your life - keep that for your book - you are going to write your memoirs aren't you?  

Just imagine the chatty bit of this forum as a conversation in a pub - you know what a pub bore is like don't you - and you don't want to be one of those   just take an interest in what other people are doing and chat to them about it.

Just be our gardening friend Mike 


I've a feeling that even my patience might be exhausted in the Middle East David - I'd probably end up bashing their heads together and telling them to go and play nicely or there'd be no supper ................. ever!!! 


So when do you go Dove because that is exactly what is needed  


But they won't listen to anyone - each of them is right, the other is wrong and no one understands them and "It's not fair!!!" and half of the west is riddled with guilt and the rest wants the oil.

It's so tragic - it's been going on ever since I was born 

Dovefromabove wrote (see)

.........  It's so tragic - it's been going on ever since I was born 

However, I don't think that event was the cause of it ................. 

Orchid Lady

That's why Dove has her name.....symbol of peace 

I'm no good at science or art so there's my answer LOL! I learnt a bit from my mum and the rest I have leant this year....but I've said that before 

Mike, I think Dove's analogy of us all having a drink is a very good one, so let's just get another round in and get on with chatting about what we all love best (well along with cakes of course) 

It is David's fault all those gas guzzling motor bikes. We marched out or sneaked out of that area on the Mandate ending, the land grab and the war starting and still going on. Will the same happen with the Scottish vote I ask?

David I have many pictures of me on many bikes from the solid frame BSA dispatch riding bike, Norton, then an AJS the first in the Middle East with telescopic forks but only a 350 engine I could not catch the BSA's on the long Canal Road. Through the years I always had an army bike as personal transport and would shove it in the back of my Rover on long runs. A BSA Gold Star, Norton Featherbed, Another BSA twin then a short lived Triumph with Spring Heel very unstable and the only time I came off, it was icy at the time, the last bike another AJS, six hundred miles round trip every weekend from Aldershot to Stockton and back through Autumn and Winter, that was biking not Café Racing.



Steve 309

The trouble with the Middle East Question is (as someone once said of Northern Ireland) that as soon as anyone gets near an answer they change the question.

The real question is, where is WW3 going to start?  Syria?  Gaza?  Ukraine?.....

My thinking too Steve.   The world is a scary place right now, so many leaders and would be leaders flexing their muscles itching to fight.  


They seem so eager to make others be peaceable that they're willing to wage war to do it